In our third issue we have an interview with punk sound engineers. It ended up being a little too massive to print the whole thing, so we took great care to try to condense it without losing the main ideas. However, if that wasn’t enough for you, here is a copy of the whole thing—10,472 words—unedited and uncut. 

Now we just need to convince Meghan to record a commentary track to go with it.

Enjoy!  

PUNK SOUND ENGINEERS

It is hard to imagine a world without recording. A world without documented Music. While you can read about recording with every issue of Tape Op Magazine that is published and other assorted zines and magazines, It is rare that you ever see interviews with DIY punk sound Engineers, and also interviews with women Sound Engineers. This is a collective interview done with five engineers who either do live sound, home recording, or have started their own studios.
With: Will killingsworth (Massachusetts), Megan March (California), Jack (California), Steve Roche (Philadelphia), Kathy Cashel (Washington DC)
Interview by: Meghan Minior

How did you get involved in recording?

WILL: I think my story is like most people who record, I was in high school and in a band so I bought a 4-track. Then I had a 16 channel mixer to use with it, making sub-mixes. Then I went to college and started using their studio, helping friend’s bands record, and finally after graduating I put together a studio in my house. I think a combination of necessity early on and then being ‘the guy who kinda knows what he’s doing’ is all it really was, that and of course an interest in the process, technique, etc. I’m also fully aware that playing the type of music I do will never pay any bills, so recording is a way that I can be involved with what I love, music, and pay some bills at the same time.

MEGAN: I started doing live sound as a volunteer at the Gilman St. Project in Berkeley when I was 16. As a volunteer, I was able to learn the system though trial and error under the guidance of older punks which was really necessary for me at the time because I didn’t trust anybody over 30. The booking got pretty interesting in the late 90s which lead me to want to document the shows. My first recordings were done off the board onto ratty cassette tapes that I still have in a drawer somewhere today. Some of the bands brought their own engineers to the club, whom I became friends with and was able to shadow at local studios. Until then, I’d never seen a patch bay. Later, I studied recording techniques at Mills College in Oakland where we learned the rudiments of digital recording by editing 1/4″ reel to reel tape with an exacto knife. I was also given keys to the 24 track studio and spent many nights recording drum tracks. After school, I interned at Berkeley Repertory Theater for a year, which I found frustrating because I don’t understand theater people. However, I did a lot of foley recording then in a studio I helped put together where we created sound effects for sound design. Now I work for several rock venues in San Fransisco doing front of house (FOH) and monitors.

JACK: playing in diy bands always means diy recordings on some level; at least at the beginning. ive been playing in bands for the last 12 years and i can definitely say that i was interested in the recording process from the start. in that time it went from some serious guerilla recording tactics to owning my own studio. the reason i wanted to be the one manning the controls is because there are too many assholes out there that dont know the difference between a producer and an engineer. “just shut the fuck up and push those buttons. stop telling me that my riff doesnt work.”

STEVE: Trying to record demos for my own bands and friends’ bands. A friend had a cassette four track that I borrowed semi-permanently. I started buying microphones and cheap, radio shack mixers. I really didn’t have any idea what I was doing until I started working at a radio station as an engineer for live bands. I kinda watched this one guy do it for a few months and t hen took over when he graduated. I got a lot of practice with all kinds of music - noise and beeps from laptops to Vic Chesnutt to Khanate to World Inferno Friendship Society. The station was all over the place in terms of genres and that gave me a wide range of experience. Bands started to use the live recordings I did for records and then I just bought a reel to reel 8 track and started doing more “proper” recordings. Its just progressed from there.

KATHY: Basically recording my own stuff. I had already been in the studio several times with other bands I was in, helpless in front of the rows of faders and blinking lights. First I got a four-track and just messed around on my own. Then my band at the time was ready to do an album, and we ended up doing basic tracks in the studio but overdubs, vocals, and mixing at my house. And then I did the reverse process with a bunch of acoustic songs - recording an album at home, and mixing in the studio. I wanted to be able to understand and control the process directly. I wanted to record my own stuff without being self-conscious, and without the money clock ticking. And I was curious about the equipment - also everything was going digital right when I got into it, and that made it more accessible to me.

Why is it important to record music? Is it important?

WILL: I think the recording of music is an interesting phenomenon, if you think about it, for most of the human existence songs and music were always temporary things and songs were arguably different every time they were performed. Now with the existence of recording, there is a definitive version of songs and music that exist in their studio recording version. I’m certainly glad that recording exists in terms of how it affects the way I relate to music, and that I didn’t have to be at a Clash show in 1979 to appreciate their music for example. It’s hard to imagine what the world would be like without recorded music, but it seems safe to assume that without it my entire life and the existence of the d.i.y. network would be completely different, so in that regards it’s extremely important. Also, when I say my entire life, I don’t mean because I record music for a job, I mean in terms of playing in a band, touring, and especially the exposure to various music and the ideas contained within it that helped define my viewpoints on life and influenced the music I play. Honestly the more I think about it, the harder it is to imagine what life would be without it, it kinda seems like it could be the basis of a really terrible movie…

MEGAN: One of the things I admire most about music is that unlike a painting on a wall with a monetary value, it exists for only a second. Recording breaks this rule. However, I see the archival elements of recording as an important tool which allows people to experience the art of music without hearing it live. I think it’s lame when musicians lip sync to their own records (this is not an urban legend, I’ve mixed these people!) because it’s a lie. In a world of auto tune and post production, the average ear forgets that the human voice came from a mouth with spit and phlegm, and gets agitated if it hears anything less perfect.

JACK: it is very important — not just for yourself, but for the listeners who could possibly benefit from sharing your art. without recorded music im pretty sure i couldnt make it through the day.

STEVE: It is absolutely important because without recordings, the songs and band only exist when they are performing. There should be something done to document it for any audience that exists for it, if not for the performers themselves. What a different form music would take if it could not be recorded. I’m just imagining people trying to transcribe songs by say Don Caballero or something. I’d be curious to see what the sheet music would look like.

KATHY: Well, it’s communication. Not everyone can get to your show. Not everyone can come sit in your living room or practice space with you when you play. I heard someone say once that “the recording is the menu, the show is the meal,” but really they are both meals. I love recordings. They can be a private, intimate experience for the listener in a way that shows can’t. It’s falafel vs. burritos.

Did you go to school for it? Do you think going to school to learn recording is necessary?

WILL: Well, the college I went to allowed students to define their own major, and it had a studio that I used, so I can’t completely say I didn’t go to school for it, but at the same time they only had one recording class that was very rudimentary, so it was a very different experience than actually attending a school that specializes in recording, and probably a lot less informative. I don’t think going to school for recording is necessary, I feel very confident that most of what I’ve learned about recording has been done on my own just working in the studio, and feel most people probably have similar experiences. Sometimes I wonder if there’s knowledge that I could benefit from that a ‘real’ training could have provided, but then it seems most people going to recording school don’t seem to think it provides such things. Ultimately I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to pursue one’s interest in it though.

MEGAN: Yes, mainly because a music degree was more fun than the other options, and the people I met were interesting. I didn’t get a degree in recording, but I took a lot of recording classes. I wanted to be what my dad called “well rounded” and my scholarship at this all ladies liberal arts school allowed for it. No, school isn’t necessary, but sound engineering does take education. I hardly use anything I learned in school, and I’m a full time professional sound engineer. I learned by soldering in speaker fuses at a punk club, and observing other engineers. Shadowing is the best way to learn, and having a friend who will answer your questions. I’ve worked with a lot of jerks whose parents paid a lot of money for them to go to designer sound schools where it seems they learn to only work on equipment that is too high tech for any working studio to afford, and carry around shitty attitudes that make them a pain to work with. A lot of recording is the ability to listen and achieve a quality sound, not how many expensive toys you used in the process.

JACK: i had no formal schooling for recording. i guess the need for school depends on the type of future youre trying to achieve. ie; if you want to work in a million dollar studio and record the next beyonce record then you might want to look into spending the, what is it? 100 grand or some shit? from what ive gathered those schools teach you things you would need to know, like how to get around in a million dollar room. and they say they offer job placement, too, which would be helpful if there were any jobs left in this industry. the schools also train for post-production and movie sound and all that, too. so, if thats your interest then school is probably for you.now as far as punk rock and diy recording… the education might not be as necessary. i guess it all depends on the person. i mean, if you’re starting from square one and you know absolutely nothing about sound or whatever then it can be a touch overwhelming. fuck, i guess the answer is, “i dont know.”

STEVE: I did waste a tremendous amount of money going to school and though my degree is technically a Liberal Arts degree, I had a concentration in recording and took a lot of classes for it. Honestly, I learned a lot of what I needed to get started from about two classes and all the time I had at the radio station. The rest of the classes were relatively worthless as you could never really get much studio time. I did manage to record the last Saetia 7″ there and Your Adversary. (I did start to record some Interpol songs, too; but the tape machine broke - if I could only find that 2″ reel). Everything else came from trial and error. And I still make errors, they’re just smaller and less noticeable after 8 years of doing this. I think if you are looking to go to school for recording, your money would be better spent getting some basic gear and cutting your teeth recording whoever will let you. There are a lot of great resources out there like Tape Op magazine and many, many books and message boards.

KATHY: Nope and nope. Not that it’s a bad idea - it just isn’t something I feel like I’ve really missed out on, for what I’m interested in doing. There are a lot of resources out there for when I bump into a problem I don’t understand. (Although sometimes I wish I knew more electrical engineering…)

What is your recording set up like?

WILL: I record to an Alesis HD24 hard disk recorder with 24 tracks. Almost all the rest of my gear is analog compressors, mic pre-amps, gates, etc all run through my Soundcraft Ghost 32 channel mixing board. Essentially the 24 track just acts as a tape deck with minor editing capabilities. I think this set up works well as I’m not really into the idea of working “in-the-box” on a computer for everything, although I realize it allows a new extreme level of control, I’m not sure that that is entirely necessary, especially when making punk records. I also just like to reach out and grab things and move them around , so I guess it’s partially just a tactile thing. I would like the option of being able to record on tape as well, but I don’t really have the space for a tape machine currently, and most of the bands I record seem too broke to afford 2″ reels anyway.

MEGAN: My boyfriend and I are building a studio in the garage as we speak. It’s tough to get sound proofing cheap, and we’re tired of talking to the cops the old lady across the street keeps calling. Anyways, I’ve got an odd collection of graphic EQs, mics, and an old 1/4″ reel to reel that my grandfather had, still in the box, and a four track. As back up, the bf has a shmancy computer I’m going to install protools onto. I’m actually hesitant to get too sooped up because I’d rather work with studios that are already up because I can’t afford to buy a lot of equipment. I just want something simple to tool around with.

JACK: Im running a pro tools hd setup with a control 24 board. all processing is analog (eq and compression). this would normally be the part where i geek out hard, but to spare the embarassment of actually including the comprehensive gear list im just going to say check out the website for details. www.theatomicgarden.com

STEVE: If you want the complete nerd list you can check out my website (www.goldenbrownrecordings.com or www.myspace.com/permanenthearingdamage for now), but I record to a 16 track analog tape machine (Tascam MS16). I mix and track through an analog console (Soundcraft Ghost) in real time. I occasionally do some stereo editing on a computer (Nuendo and Wavelab). I have a large live room with high ceilings and a moderately sized control room basically built within the live room (it is separate and walled off). This is now all within a warehouse in Philadelphia.

KATHY: It’s broken down to a minimal setup right now because my landlord’s selling my building. When it’s up and running, the Donkey Palace studio is a ProTools LE system based around a 24-channel Soundcraft board. There’s a control room with the computer and outboard gear and then a big 24-channel snake running into the next room, which is the tracking room. Right now, while it’s broken down, it’s just enough for me to record my own stuff (no snake, no board). Greg Ceton has been a co-recordist with me for most of the sessions and a partner in crime with the Donkey Palace. He had his own project studio going, and our equipment has merged to create the fine stash we have now. Our recording tastes are pretty complimentary too, so that’s worked out quite well. It’s worth mentioning that I live on a very busy corner, and it’s incredibly noisy. There are sirens and car horns and bus brakes squealing all over everything done here, and you really notice it on the quieter stuff. This place has a definite flavor.

What have been some of your favorite/worst recording experiences?

WILL: This is a dangerous question! It’s hard to single out a specific favorite experience, I think really some of my favorite times in the studio have been working with bands that are also friends and working hard on a longer project, but having a good time while doing it, this would include the likes of Daniel Striped Tiger, Ringers, Death To Tyrants, Mind Eraser, Das Oath and assorted Mark McCoy projects, etc.Worst experiences, would probably range from amps or drums breaking mid-session (although I once soldered a bass to work again which felt triumphant), to drunk bands, to funk bands spending four days in the studio, to bands who high-five over stupidly offensive lyrics, etc. I don’t really want to get too specific!

MEGAN: I guess every body’s been there at 4am waiting for the bassist to finally play their line right for the 30th time. Or gotten through with a session and realized that your tape wasn’t calibrated right. I’d rather remember dragging all of my friends into the studio to record back ups for my silly punk band. I yelled at them when the beer got too close to the mics.

JACK: recording bands that im a fan of is the coolest thing ever. i will often offer up free time to bands that i want to really be involved with. also, recording friends is usually amazing (and equally unprofitable). as far as bad experiences… i guess when people are just unprepared it is really frustrating. theyre mad cause theyre wasting their money and im mad cause theyre wasting my time.

STEVE: Anytime I have been working with friends on a record I am excited about, it rules . A few that stand out: I recorded this band, Serpent Throne, that are friends of mine and they basically wanted it to sound like the first Black Sabbath records and I think we pretty much hit the nail on the head. It was really fun to shoot for a very specific sound and get it that well - granted, most of it was just how they sounded, but I did make a lot of mic/placement choices based on that. Oh, they’re also fucking awesome. The Armalite LP was great to work on. Again, they’re all friends and they just played so damn well, it would have been difficult to make the record sound bad. Other standout fun ones: Witch Hunt’s “Blood Red States,” Teeth of Mammals LP, Towers, some of the many Tom Schlatter related projects (the Assistant, In First Person, This Ship Will Sink, etc), Belegost and Fighting Dogs.As far as worst, I did record a band earlier this year who brought far more people than they should have, including a “producer” who I’m pretty sure had never seen a tape machine before. They were just a run of the mill rock band. The band themselves seemed like good guys, but their “producer” was annoying as hell and was pretty much a total “bro.” Not fun. Oh and they were 4 hours late the first day.

KATHY: Favorites: Recording Fated Fury for the Exotic Fever HIPS compilation was great, everybody was really bringin’ it musically, all talent and ideas and no egos. Also the Firing Squad single, which was also a case of the band just being all there and us not messing it up.Worst: No horror stories yet. Thank God.

Do you have some sort of quality control on who you accept work with, do you have to like the band already?

WILL: Initially I worked with anyone who wanted to record with me, but over time I realized it wasn’t always beneficial for any party involved if the music was something completely removed from anything I find decent (meaning rap-rock, folk-funk, etc… all those damn hyphenated genres).So, I’ve started turning some people down, but for the most part my interests are fairly varied and I certainly have no problem working with people I don’t know yet. In fact, I’ve made a lot of great friends by recording their bands, which is really cool.

MEGAN: In school I only recorded friends. At the theater, I had to deal with some really difficult personalities. If I were running my own studio, I’d record my friends, their friends, and awesome people. Recording can be a very personal process which requires people working together. If there is no element of co-operation, you are doomed. With live sound, I have no quality control whatsoever because I don’t book for the club. I don’t really care so much if the band sucks if the people are nice. If they’re assholes, I’ll tell my boss and the band won’t play there again because the club doesn’t want to work with assholes either.

JACK: unfortunately i am not of a high enough profile/economic standing to turn away any work. however, in the past there have been some super good times/recordings from bands that i thought would be a nightmare. i really have very few bad experiences in my studio.

STEVE: Most of us recording engineers are not in a position to turn down work, I would guess. I have turned down work just due to time and now that I’m working a full-time job again, there are probably some things I have done in the past that I would say “no” to if I was asked again. When a band contacts me, I always talk with them for a while just to see where they’re coming from and what they plan to do. If it works with my schedule and they seem like decent people, I’m always down.

KATHY: Oh yeah. I pick and choose for sure - I wouldn’t record a band I didn’t like or people I didn’t like. (Which may be why I don’t have any recording horror stories to tell.)

Do you record your own music? What are some of the positive and negative aspects of this?

WILL: Yes, for the past seven years I’ve recorded all the material for the bands I’ve been involved in. I think a positive and negative aspect would be having the ability to be endlessly critical, and being emotionally involved in what you’re creating. Ultimately it’s something I enjoy doing and I’m glad that I can have that level of control over my own music, although at times I also wish I had some of that outsider perspective of reality. Recently I tried having someone else mix one of my band’s recordings, but wasn’t satisfied with it and ended up re-doing 90% of it myself anyways. It was a really informative process for me, although probably not something I would do again.

MEGAN: Yes, and it’s very hard to get your drum tracks to match up with your own guitar tracks. Also there is a lot of running back and forth, unless you have a buddy to press the button for you. My friend Crystal did this for me a lot, and she learned from the process too.

JACK: i do record my own music. the biggest possitives are total control and unlimited time. the biggest negatives are total control and unlimited time. i usually dont have time to really experiment with other bands becasuse they are usually very tight on time and money. as a result i usually fuck up my own bads recordings the worst. thats getting better, though. im actually very happy with our most recent record.

STEVE: Always. I have actually only been in a studio that I was not the engineer like three times in my life. It is great that I do not have to worry about communicating what I want it to sound like to our engineer and that I have a good handle (most of the time) on the songs I’m recording. It is both good and bad that I have unlimited time to work. I do like having limitations, which is why I like recording to analog tape. It forces you to make decisions and commitments. And for this very reason, you can do 30 mixes of the same song over the course of weeks and still not come up with anything better than you did the first time around. More often than not, I stick to the first attempt. And I think it is incredibly difficult to remain objective to something you are so close to. You do not listen to the recordings of a band the same way if you are the performer. It just doesn’t work like that. I’ll also add that recording yourself playing drums is a horrible pain in the ass. I typically use about 9 or 10 mics on a 4 piece drum set (what I’m playing these days). Sure, I can have someone else play my kit but it is absolutely not the same - they don’t hit the same way or play as loud, etc. I feel those guitarists have such an easier time. Hell, they can even run their cable into the control room most of the time if they need to. And I can’t imagine many of them use more than 2-3 mics on a cab at a time. I don’t know. That is probably the most difficult and frustrating part - trying to get sounds/levels right for my drums.

KATHY: You end up learning more about yourself, whether you want to or not -that’s the positive and the negative. Ha. The positive: you don’t deal with bandmates’ bullshit. The negative: you have to deal with your own bullshit. When I’m doing my own stuff I miss bouncing ideas off people, and having that group energy that you get in a band. But I love doing it on my own terms.

What are some projects you most recently recorded?

WILL: I’ve been busy a lot with my record label, Clean Plate, and with two bands, Ampere and Failures, so i haven’t been in the studio as much as usual, but recent sessions of note would be: Arts, Social Circkle, Relics, Ringers, Wasteland, Aerosols, L’Antietam, Dennis, Furnace, etc…

MEGAN: Live bands playing at work.

JACK: we just finished tracking two trainwreck songs. that was fucking awesome. that was one of the cases where the band is like family and im a fan of the music. total fucking awesomeness. other recent stuff includes: finest dearest, fiction like non-fiction, acts of sedition, grayceon, burial year.

STEVE: I am half done with a split LP for In First Person. I recorded a noisy hardcore band from Philly/Allentown called Middle America, an awesome power-violence band from Brooklyn called Apeshit!, and a sorta Chavez-esque band from Philly called Algebra of Need over the last couple months. I am in the midst of recording a psych/peacepunk band from Philly called Lesser Known Neutrinos. They use viola and lots of weird synths and keyboards along with rock instrumentation.

KATHY: I haven’t been doing bands recently, because of the studio being broken down. So it’s mostly been my own stuff. I just wrote and recorded some music for theater: Taffety’s Punk’s play The Devil in His Own Words. Before that there was my song on the EXF Compassion Over Killing comp, Brian Duss’ band Ibid, and three things on the EXF HIPS comp (Fated Fury, a song of mine with drummer Amanda Huron, and Gurth). Acoustic stuff for the April Decca and my friend Patrick Adrian a while ago.

Is this currently your only job?

WILL: For the past several years it has been, although I recently started working a part-time job just to help a bit with downtimes and to have some additional, reliable income.

MEGAN: Live sound, yes.

JACK: yes.

STEVE: Nope. It has been my main job for a stretch (well, two different stretches, really), but it was just too hand to mouth and I travel too much to really make that feasible at this stage in my life. Maybe again someday.

KATHY: Nope. And the truth is, I am just fine with it not being a money-making enterprise. If I were trying to make a living off of it, I probably wouldn’t be able to pick and choose my projects, and would probably think of it entirely differently. As it is, it’s all icing on the gravy.

What are some of the main things that you have learned in general about the recording process? What advice would you give to recordees, as they approach the notion of recording music in a studio?

WILL: One of the things that has sort of been an on going realization is how much each individual instrument’s sound can affect the perception of the other instruments around it. I know before I ever started recording I never gave a second thought to drum sound or even performance really, but now feel like it’s the foundation of a mix or song. But really, having a guitar amp that sounds like a car wreck can be really hard to work around (or sometimes is perfect!), just like a drum kit where everything is beat to hell and is out of any life. I think my advice to most bands about to record is to be more prepared than they think they need to be. So many bands use studio time practicing/changing songs, writing lyrics, realizing something is broken, debating details, etc, which is ok, but it just makes me realize that the studio time could be much more efficient if these things were addressed prior to recording. I would also suggest bands practice playing through their songs without vocals, so they’re not necessarily dependent on those cues when recording. Also, changing strings, new drum heads, etc, will all help you get a better sound out of a recording faster.

MEGAN: You’re lucky you don’t have to name a frequency on the graphic eq while the mic is feeding back and shredding the ears of 500+ drunk people, in 1 second. In a studio, take advantage of your excess of time, but don’t think about things more than listening. Most of all, let your ears have breaks and listen to the play back at a low volume. Don’t smoke during mixing, it changes your hearing

JACK: BE PREPARED!!!!!!!!! know your songs, know what parts the other members are playing, know how to play your own parts, have your lyrics written, practice, etc. all of these things will save you and your engineer some serious headaches. also, you have to accept the fact that you are going to be out of your element when youre recording and youve got to be prepared to deal with that. being comfortable it the most important thing, so do whatever it takes to get there. oh, and book more than 2 days to record a full length.

STEVE: I think I have learned that about 90% of how a record sounds comes from the band. I recently did a rough mix of some unfinished songs I tracked in 2001. Thinking back on my setup, mic selection and decisions back then, I cannot believe the tracks sounded as good as they did. Fortunately for me, the players were all great and they had great sounding gear. I made some horrible errors while I was tracking, but most of them were corrected pretty easily. So I think that would be a good thing to keep in mind. Even if you’re replacing drums and using Amp Farm or whatever you have - if the gear and the players don’t sound good enough, there is not a lot you can do. I’m getting away from my answer a bit here. But basically, the band is responsible for most of how the record will sound. So practice like crazy, borrow the best sounding gear you can if yours isn’t cutting it and just have what you want going on (or as close as you can manage) when you come in. It will make it much less likely that your record will get fucked up. Make sure you can communicate what you want to your engineer - and bring reference CDs. These are so important. If you can’t articulate how you want your drums to sound or how you want the guitars to sound, find a CD that got them right and bring it in for the engineer to hear.

KATHY: Ah! If I could go back in time and give myself advice, it would be to relax a little. You care passionately about your band, and want the recording to be perfect - and it sets you up for disappointment. Trust your sense of what sounds good, and enjoy it. Good vibes get recorded too, maaaaan. They really do. And of course, if you’re interested, learn more about the recording process. Ask friends who are into it. And I highly recommend Tape Op magazine, which has a free subscription.

What do you really like in a recording, personally?

WILL: This is tough, because there are so many things to like in a recording, and I’d like to like them all! Something perhaps worth noting that I really like in a punk recording, or any recording I guess, is a certain sense of a lack of perfection. I think this probably exists in all albums before a certain time, but in recent years the impossibly perfect sound is becoming popular, even in underground music. Now, I don’t want to hear an album that’s full of mistakes or anything, hardly, but I think that ultimately having drum hits that aren’t all the same volume/sound, and having pieces of unintentional feedback, or minutely missed guitar strums is all part of what makes a recording sound human. I think a lot of people have many different takes on this kind of stuff, but my feeling is that once you remove all of these natural elements, the end product becomes harder to relate to, as it starts to feel literally inhuman. I guess I think a little bit of chaos or randomness is good to have in a performance.

MEGAN: Textures and good tones. I appreciate a drummer with good timing, but the whole band needs to be playing together, giving the recording energy and personality.

JACK: i like honest recordings. i want to hear what the band sounds like, not the studio or the engineer. this usually gets me into trouble when im recording cause i want the shitty band to sound shitty and they havent realized theyre a shitty band, yet. just kidding (sort of).

STEVE: I mostly listen for drum sounds, I’d say. It could be because I’m a drummer, but I feel that at least for rock records, the guitars are always huge and up front and the bass and vocals are all gritty and in your face, but the drums are typically the most characteristic of a recording and the most difficult thing to get right. I guess I’d go as far as to say that I’d say the drum sounds on most records are rather boring. They all sound the same on so many recordings. I guess that is what I appreciate the most about the characteristic Steve Albini sound. His recordings, and specifically his drums, sound like they were recorded in a space. They sound three dimensional. And that is something very rare on modern records and I think that gives a recording character and makes it interesting. Adding depth to mixes is so important. Especially with so many records being mixed down within a computer. I have never had the chance to A/B a recording that was summed via analog circuits vs. via computer, but I imagine a lot of that flatness I hear in many recordings is due to that.

KATHY: Good music! I don’t really care so much about whether the recording itself is “good” - technical mastery for its own sake is boring.There are some records that I love that sound like hell, no low end, tinny, trashy, or whatever, but the energy or musical awesomeness still communicates.

What are a few of your favorite pieces of gear?

WILL: I think my favorite things are primarily outboard gear, and mainly the ones that can do things that nothing else I own can. So, those would have to be the Drawmer LX20 compressor, DBX 566 compressor, and honestly various guitar distortion pedals used as outboard effects ranging from a modified tube screamer, a rat, some boss turbo overdrive, etc, all can do some pretty interesting things when blendedin and used tastefully. I have a fair amount of other more traditional stuff which certainly do their part and do it well, but I guess it’s the character that the aforementioned devices impart on what they process that makes them special in my opinion. Lastly, I’d probably have to mention my Marshall JCM800, which while debatably not a piece of recording gear I suppose, has been used on a variety of recordings and has never let me down. This all said, of course, my gear is directly proportional to what I can afford, so there may be tons of other things I could rave about, I’m just not in a place to find out!

MEGAN: For live sound, DBX compressor, gates of any kind that have adjustable thresholds, and analogue boards. I’ve worked on a few digital ones, and enjoyed it, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched a talented engineer stare at a perfect sound wave on a screen, while the house sounds awful.

JACK: my pair of distressors are fucking rad. cant beat em. the chandler tg-1… holy shit. also, the shure sm7, very cool mic.How much do you involve yourself in the projects you record?i work on a case by case basis. if someone wants help i will surely give it to them. i definitely always have an opinion, but im not trying to push it on anyone. music is art. recording is art. its not like there are right and wrong answers.

STEVE: Honestly, my favorite thing these days is my live room. I have been working for years in this tiny basement that is very dead sounding (few reflections) and only has a 6′ ceiling. My new room is easily six times the size, has 14′ ceilings and is super live and loud. Basically the complete opposite of my previous space. It is a little problematic at times if a band is really loud and their drummer isn’t. But if the drummer is good, the room makes it sound that much better. I don’t know that I have any particular attachment to any of my “nicer” gear. I think the more unique stuff, like all the PZM mics I have, I would have a very difficult time living without - just in terms of drum sounds, etc. I am lost without delays. They are so important to giving recordings depth. I have a Lexicon PCM 60 reverb that I’m quite fond of. And I think my cheap crossover has helped make the bass sit just right in so many mixes. These are always the things I have missed when I’ve worked in other studios.

KATHY: I always use the Sytek MP4A mic preamp these days. It’s not really about that make or model, but I didn’t realize how much of a difference decent preamps made until I started using them. Also my loveable little RNC (”Really Nice Compressor”), which you know, everybody loves the RNC. They’re inexpensive and do a lovely job.

As home recording becomes more affordable and accessible, does it in turn make your job obsolete?

WILL: I think to an extent the answer is definitely yes, although clearly what someone makes at home or in a practice space on a computer is different than what they would create in a studio, but that’s necessarily a bad or good thing. Probably the most valuable thing a studio can offer, besides different sonic options, is the experience of the engineer, which is something that no beginner’s home recording set up can replace or duplicate. However, as noted earlier, a punk record doesn’t exactly need to be perfect to be great, and obviously great records have and can be made at home or in a studio. It will be interesting to see though what happens in the next five, ten, or twenty years in the recording industry.

MEGAN: Maybe. I do live sound, so I’m in the clear on that one, but for all the studio engineers, the good ones will survive.

JACK: no. people still need to know what they are doing. you cant just sit in front of a computer and magically have a kick-ass record. it takes experience and a good ear. neither of those come in software form yet. however, i have heard some really great stuff come from a bedroom studio. if anything, bands are demoing more at home. that means when they get to the studio their record is going to be that much better.

STEVE: I describe recording as becoming like Photoshop. It has become so accessible and increasingly so that almost everyone can do it these days. And that is great and amazing that so many people have access to all these tools. The recording quality of most demos and independent records has increased dramatically in the last 5-10 years. Pick up any demo from ten or even five years ago and the difference is apparent. I should add that, like Photoshop, people over-use their tools to make records and performances technically “perfect” and aside from being artificial, results in a loss of character and human element - the things that make us love the songs we do. Come on, how many of your records sound like shit but you love them anyway? Either way, there will always be those bands that want to work with someone who is experienced in making records and who can offer some sort of perspective on the process. I also feel that, as I still use analog tape, this is a selling point for a lot of people as well. I don’t really know how feasible this will ever be as a career for me, but I don’t see myself being run out of business for a long time, honestly.

KATHY: This is probably more of a question for someone who’s making a living off recording. I think it’s great that the process is being so democratized.

Do you think it is necessary for a punk band to get a record mastered? Do you do mastering? Is there somewhere you would recommend?

WILL: Necessary? No, not unless there is a problem that needs addressing. A good idea? Sure! Personally I get all the recordings I play on mastered because it has become part of my process for getting the end result I desire. If you’re releasing a CD it’s probably a good idea to get it mastered to make sure that the volume is “competitive” as they say, and so it sounds more consistent on various playback systems. For vinyl, it becomes less necessary in my opinion because there will still be a mastering engineer who cuts it to the vinyl and can adjust the volume and EQ as needed, if needed. However, if you get your final mix and feel that there’s ways it could be improved upon that don’t require a re-mix, it might very well be worth it. For demo CDs or tapes I wouldn’t recommend it, just because of the extra expense, unless you’ve got money burning a hole in your pocket. I don’t personally do mastering, I can compress the final mix to make things louder/fuller if they’re not being mastered, and will back off of it if they are. I have had good experiences mastering with Alan Douches at West West Side in New York, and with Nick Zampiello at New Alliance in Boston, they are who I have worked the most with and have had bands bring their material to with successful results.

MEGAN: My old punk band sent a press testing back to United to get remastered, and it definitely was better. Mastering is an art onto it’s own, considering all of the dynamics of different mediums. It is very crucial if you want a recording to sound good specifically on vinyl or cd, that it get mastered for that medium. I’ve heard George Horn is very good.

JACK: this is all up to the band. if they want an unmastered sound then go for it. i personally dont care for that, but who the fuck am i? these days it is kind of the style to have the recording loud and pushed, so if you want that mastering is going to be necessary.i do mastering even though i shouldnt. mastering engineers should master, not recording engineers. certainly not the ones who recorded the record. however, there are too many hacky assholes who just got a computer and are now a “mastering engineer.” and since i know that no one who records with me is going to spend $500 to get their $500 recording mastered i just do it myself because i know i will do a better job than the inexpensive people.

STEVE: Technically, no, it is not necessary to master a CD or pre master a vinyl record. I strongly encourage it if a band has the resources to do so in either case. I would say getting a vinyl record mastered anywhere but the pressing plant is always a good idea. The guys at the pressing plant are more concerned with making your record not skip than with the musical subtleties of it. And you pay for this process either way. Why not drop the extra $50 or 100 and have it done much better?I would like to add that mastering seems to have become this mysterious thing that so many people are willing to shell out big bucks for. Granted, you definitely get what you pay for in terms of mastering in most cases. However, I strongly believe that your money will go much further in a recording studio than a mastering studio. Mastering is important, but my mind is blown constantly by bands that spend as much if not more on mastering their records than they did recording it.I have been doing mastering here and there for those bands that really can’t afford to go to a proper mastering facility. My concern being that if it’s gonna be done on the cheap, I’d rather do a decent job on it than have someone else really fuck it up. People and places I try to send folks to: West West Side, John Golden, Silver Sonya and Don Grossinger.

KATHY: It depends on who the band is, how much money they have, and what they’re doing with the recording. I don’t do mastering myself. I’ve used Chad Clark at Silver Sonya and Alan Douches at West West Side, who are both fantastic. It definitely makes a difference, but it seems like it’s all a question of where your money’s best spent, especially when you’re a broke punk band.

What are some of your favorite recordings and why?

WILL: This is tough, and I’m nor sure I can think of a definitive list by any means. Off the top of my head: Twelve Hour Turn - The Victory Of Flight, LP. For one thing this record has one of my favorite snare sounds, besides that everything is well defined and has it’s own space, but isn’t really polished or too clean either. It’s also my favorite material by them, so that helps too! Bonnie ‘Prince’ Billy - Superwolf, LP. I really love the dynamics of this record, overall it is very full and open. The guitar tone at times has a borderline magical sparkle and chime to it that I think is essentially perfection. Hail of Rage - Fucking Pissed, 7″. Perhaps a strange, or at least obscure, mention, but in my opinion this is one of the most brutal recordings and records ever. The drums are probably actually too loud in the mix, but they are also the highlight of the band in my opinion as they are possibly the most intense drum performance on a punk/hardcore/grind record, so it works. (Side note, the recent discography has additional guitars added and is re-mastered with the song order changed, so I would urge people to track down the actual 7″ if interested) Joan of Arc - The Gap, LP. Somehow this album pulls off being extremely over-edited to a point of ridiculousness, yet still feels organic to me. In general I’m not a fan of recording tricks that sound like they could never happen in real life, but I don’t know, somehow it works really well in this context. This album is pretty much genius in my book. I could probably keep going, but I should also probably stop! Honorable mentions go to The Exploding Hearts, TheClash, Kajun S.S., Union of Uranus (sort of the opposite of Hail of Rage with ridiculously loud guitars forming a soaring wall of sound), and on and on.

MEGAN: My most recent favorite is Sleater Kinney’s last album, because the sound is so warm, big, and sharp around the edges. In fact, it’s interesting how that band got a different amazing engineer for every record they did, allowing each album to have it’s own distinctive personality. With The Woods they really tapped into the big 70’s sound like early Pink Floyd, Roky Erickson and The Aliens, and Mudhoney dirty grunge, with heavy textures that showcase a creative engineer. I’ve also got this amazing Everything You’ve Ever Wanted To Hear On the Moog record. Definitely the product of crazy wing nut sound geeks.

JACK: shit. how am i supposed to fit all this in? ok…refused: the shape of punk to come. this record makes me want to quit because it sounds so fucking good. just in good taste. converge: jane doe. converge is good, kurt is good, and that record is pissed! love it. rocky votolato: suicide medicine. honest, organic, true. fuck yeah. meneguar: i was born at night. sounds exactly like the band live, and that is a beautiful thing.wait. i could list a hundred more, but im not listing my favorite recordings, im listing my favorite albums. it really doesnt matter what the recording sounds like. the music has to be good. i mean, the recording helps, it enhances, all that jazz, but a terrible band can have an amazing recording. it happens all the time. but in the end that recording is a piece of shit, because thats what was recorded: shit. a fucked up recording of amazing music is now an amazing recording. tada!

STEVE: Blessed Black Wings - High on Fire. The guitars sound fucking tremendous and are so insanely loud, and yet the drums are still so present and sound huge themselves. I just feel that this record is very well balanced and I use it as a reference when I’m mixing almost always. I know a lot of people are down on this record but I think the production makes it my favorite of theirs.
Yank Crime - Drive Like Jehu. The mix is just perfect. The drums are not overcompressed like most/all major label recordings. I really like Mark Trombino’s work - even though he does such over-compressed bubble-gum poppy crap sometimes. I truly appreciate how the noisy guitar work translates so clearly.
In the Meantime - Helmet. And I only mean that song. For some reason, that song only was recorded by Albini. The entire rest of the album was recorded by Wharton Tiers. It is pretty astounding how close Andy Wallace got the recordings to sound.but that one song just sounds so much more heavy and punishing. The drums are a bit tighter than I’d like and the vocals are terribly loud. But the overall mix is great and the guitars seriously sound perfect. If I ever get a guitar to sound like that on a record, I can die happy.
Other stuff I’ve been digging lately: Call Me Lightning - Soft Skeletons and Neurosis - Given to the Rising.KATHY: Just recently I’ve been listening to Mirah, and Jessica Rylan, and Prince. So a pretty broad span recording-style-wise. And again, I don’t really care about the recording per se, but just whether I like the music. Although come to think of it, at least with Mirah and Prince, their recording process probably shapes their musical process a lot.

Megan, how did you transition from recording to doing live sound? Which do you prefer? Do any of you also do live sound or have experience doing it? Would you ever be interested in doing this?

WILL: While I’ve helped run vocal mics at some d.i.y. shows, I wouldn’t really count that as doing sound. I’ve thought about it, but am not sure if I could handle the club atmosphere and dealing with what is probably a lot of music I’m uninterested in, but I might have a completely incorrect perspective on it. I am sure it could be an interesting learning experience, and if the right opportunity came along I would probably check it out.

MEGAN: I prefer live sound because I like the thrill of the moment and not knowing what’s going to happen. Part of the challenge of recording is capturing that excitement. There’s something about a stage that makes people nervous, and play better cause they know it can’t be edited, or tuned, or manipulated in any other way with a million takes. Everybody has their good days and bad days, but it feels really great when a show goes well.

JACK: so, i dont really do live sound, unless you count working the p.a. at the community center that is just passing vocals. i dont think i would really get the same enjoyment out of it. i dont typically like shows like that — they’re too big, too loud, too high (stages, ehk), too crouded.

STEVE: I have never done full on front of house sound, really. I mean, I have helped friends out on occasion, but never for a full night or anything. I am so paranoid about my hearing - always wear earplugs at shows - that I don’t know that I could deal with doing live sound ever.

KATHY: I haven’t done a lot of live sound, and it’s not really something I’m drawn to. When things go wrong you can ruin the show so utterly, whether or not it’s your fault, and it doesn’t seem worth the stress - I don’t think I’m built for it.

Recording seems to have always been a male dominated field. Why do you think this is?

WILL: My guess is that it stems from the fact that for whatever reason in our society women seem to be less encouraged to play music than men, which is unfortunate. Hopefully at some point in time this will be the case, although I find it hard to tell how much is really changing. It could be interesting to look at enrollment rates at recording schools though to get some perspective, if they have public records of such things.Ultimately I think it’s important to encourage women with interest in recording and/or music to pursue these interests.

MEGAN: I was always conditioned to think that “recording seems to have always been a male dominated field” but when I started working serious gigs, I found everybody lied to me. At least in San Fransisco. That was a relief. As an engineer, you often work by yourself in smaller houses, making us solitary creatures and after a while you don’t give a fuck what gender or sex or whatever you are or the other freakos you’re trying to make sound good. They don’t care either. It’s interesting because a couple of times I’ve gotten shitty attitudes from lady musicians, and this really confused me. Maybe it’s because we’ve all been subject to this stupid conditioning that it’s a “man’s world” and that a female engineer can’t be trusted. Maybe they think I don’t have experience, cause I’m a woman and women get less opportunities, maybe everybody is just used to dealing with men, who knows? Anybody who’s played a good amount of shows can tell if an engineer knows what he/she is doing. Locally, I know just as many female engineers as male, but on the road I’ve only met men. I don’t know why this is, and I’d love this to change.

JACK: as far as girls and recording… my experience is that most PEOPLE dont give a shit about recording, regardless of their gender. at least not in the nerdy aspect that it takes to actually do it. beyond that i guess dudes just geek out harder when it comes to that sort of thing. i mean why arent more girls in bands? its the same kind of thing, and equally unfortunate.i wish there were more people into it, i would have more nerds to talk to about my nerdy obsession. i cant even get my friends who are recording musicians to have a serious conversation about guitar tone or kick drum levels. fuck.

STEVE: I feel like that stems from music in general being so male dominated. I feel like the interest in recording stems from one’s own playing and recording experiences. I don’t think I have ever met a recording engineer who at the very least didn’t start by playing music themselves. And with fewer women being encouraged to play music than men, I feel it is only a natural consequence that women are less frequently recording engineers.

KATHY: The whole planet seems to have always been a male dominated field. Why is that? Yeesh, I dunno. I think about it a lot, though.Recording is a hostile environment for women, no doubt about it. Some studios (and online forums - though not tapeop.com), you get a sense of teenage uber-nerds hanging out in the basement smoking pot, listening to music, scared to death of women and the light of day.This is aided and abetted by the steep technical learning curve, which means that newbies are extra vulnerable. And there is no question but that they are going to judge you harsher, laugh harder at your mistakes, and dismiss you contemptuously in any way they can get away with. (The sadder, more sinister situation is when people I know and like/respect are blind to their own, more subtle biases. Ugh. It stinks.)In the end, I’m rather proud to say: I don’t know why, and in my better moments I don’t care. Ain’t my lookout, you know? Whatever that’s about, it’s their problem. And shrugging off their misogyny and tragic misjudgments is a victory in and of itself.

How much do you involve yourself in the projects you record?

WILL: This really depends on the project, ultimately I view my role when recording bands as someone archiving what they’re creating, or what they wish to create, so I usually try to separate my task (recording their band) from their task (creating their music how they want). This clearly isn’t a strict separation and if something sounds funny to me or if I have an idea I’ll mention it in passing, but I let the decision lie in the band’s hands and I would never try to push my ideas on them. I think it’s important to let bands cultivate their own sounds and styles from such experiences rather than tell them how it’s done or what is and isn’t a bad sound or idea. Usually the more I work with a certain band or person, the more I understand what they’re about and the more we develop a mutual language which tends to lead to me being slightly more involved. Still I always make sure that I’m not an additional member of their band or anything and that their decisions must always be their decisions.

MEGAN: Too much. I’m learning to appreciate letting a song “breathe” and contain live elements that show that humans played the instruments.

STEVE: It all depends. I have always tried to take a back seat and let the band make their own decisions. Ultimately, it is their record and not mine. I just try to not fuck up their ideas. I try to ask the right questions to find out what they want, but often bands don’t really know or if they do, they don’t know how to articulate what they want. If a band does need a little help, I will tell them some of my ideas if they are open to hear them. I always have some form of personal investment in the recordings I do. I mean, I am putting my own stamp on their record in some way or form and I take an enormous amount of pride in my work. And I think that in many instances, if I find myself recording a band I don’t think I enjoy or would care for otherwise, I will always find things about the record or band that I like. It would be hard not to, listening to the songs dozens of times on end.

KATHY: It really depends. As recordist you’re usually midwifing someone else’s ideas, so you don’t want to jump in the same way (creatively) you might in a band. But at the same time I really want it to sound good, and am very invested that way.